Interview with Abandon All Hope Zine (Ireland), January 2003

Salutations Tom! It is hard to believe this story began thirteen years ago. You were younger then! Is your determination as strong as it ever was?

Greetings from the everbleak skies Danny! Aye, it has indeed been a long, long time since the beginning of While Heaven Wept. I personally did not foresee WHW carrying on past the realization of "Sorrow Of The Angels" originally, but the need for additional expression became apparent by the time we completed that endeavour. Generally speaking, I've been obsessed with WHW's progression since the very beginning, but admittedly, there have been times when my interest has waned; because of the personal nature of the material, I will only work on it when I feel the need for catharsis/expression, otherwise it would be as false as the rest of these bands that perform Doom strictly for the sake of being Doom. Needless to say, my determination is probably stronger than ever right now, but it is coming from a different perspective, a more aggressive one, after hearing a lot shit talking and apathy towards True Doom. Plus, my departure from the band Brave provided an additional catalyst in this case; given the somewhat acrimonious split, I definitely felt like I had something to prove to myself, and those who would judge me because of how things panned out there. "Empires…" is my answer.

Sorrow Of The Angels is a classic record. No doubt about it. I still listen to it regularly. But as the years passed me by and there was no news of While Heaven Wept I began to fear the band had fallen off the face of the earth. Fortunately, I was mistaken. How did you spend those years either side of the new millennium?

Shortly after the release of "Sorrow" in the Fall of 1998, we assembled a new, performing line-up of WHW, because I had done all the guitars and most of the keyboards myself on that album, plus we needed a bassist who lived closer to us (Danny Ingerson was living 3 hours away in Philadelphia, PA. at the time of that recording). We brought in the brother/sister duo of Scott and Michelle Loose (from the band Arise From Thorns) on guitar and keyboards respectively, and Jim Hunter on bass (of Revelation/Doomstone fame or is that infamy?). Throughout 1999, we did a limited number of shows here in the US in support of "Sorrow Of The Angels," which really did not even make it over to the States properly. During the summer of 1999, I had become involved with Arise From Thorns, as both bands rehearsed in the same house, and obviously shared members. I really saw enormous potential in their music, and was happy to be involved in any capacity that I could, which at the time was lending an extra ear during the recording of their second album "Before An Audience Of Stars." I actually did track a few guitar and keyboard parts on that album, but the only real contribution in my opinion was to the arrangement of their song "Bluer Skies." So, it was more of a co-production role than anything, but after the last WHW gigs that fall, I was asked to join AFT onstage, to which I agreed; it seemed like a logical step for me, and I did not mind serving more of a supportive role with them after the scrutiny of the limelight I experienced with WHW. There were plans to relocate WHW and AFT to the West Coast of the US, but only Jon Paquin and myself actually made the journey. So after a few months out there without my bands and brethren, I made my way back to rejoin AFT, who were regularly gigging in support of the album. Upon my return to Virginia, I assumed a more active role within AFT, composing with them and blending in my own characteristic sounds. This lead to the establishment of Brave, which was in essence the evolution of AFT combined with elements of WHW in some capacity, albeit the more progressive ideas. In the Fall of 2000, we recorded our debut EP "Waist Deep In Dark Waters," a release I am still very proud of to this day; it was a more professional recording than anything I'd been involved with previously, and very much inspired by all accounts. Coming off of such a creative high, we were at odds with where we should go next, which had always been an issue, considering the lack of boundaries within that band. By the time the EP was released, I was in a pretty bad place as far as being drunk and depressed most of the time, thus generally uninspired or apathetic towards any subsequent material that we were developing. Don't get me wrong, there were SOME great ideas, but I could not be arsed…circumstances in my personal life lead me back to my demons, which ultimately created tensions that ostracized me from the rest of the band. At the same time, the feelings of despair brought back my need to do WHW, and this was when we began the whole process that lead to the recording of "Empires…" The line-up fluctuated a bit, as it has done throughout our entire existence, but ultimately settled in October of 2001, and 3 months later the tracking for the album began. All of 2002 was spent recording, and analysing our efforts…finally "Of Empires Forlorn" was finished the week before Christmas.

2003 is in its infancy and many stand with baited breath for Of Empires Forlorn which is just around the corner. How would you introduce the next instalment of the band's legacy to old and new fans alike?

"Of Empires Forlorn" is without a doubt the most diverse and professional WHW offering to date. All of the trademark elements remain intact, but there has clearly been a progression in all areas (performance, production, composition, etc.). I hope that it won't disappoint the older fans because it is not simply a rehash of our previous work, rather an entity of its own. It may not be as overtly depressive or hopeless as "Sorrow…," but it is surely heavier and does possess somewhat of a magical quality methinks. It may not be 100% Doom at this point, but the foundations are still exactly that. We've been describing it as Melancholic and Epic Symphonic Metal, somewhere between Candlemass, Fates Warning, Bathory, Styx, Kitaro, and Bach!

If you ask me for my penny's worth the album comes as a natural evolution to its predecessors: warm, fluid and even concise! Bloody hell I hear you say! No Thus With A Kiss I Die Mk II? Hearing is believing. So Tom, what sort of reactions are you anticipating? Will the hard slog pay off? Do you think this will catapult your music beyond Eibon Records?

To be honest, I really have no idea what to expect, as it is a much more diverse album, and following up the highly regarded "Sorrow Of The Angels" is no easy task. The saving grace surely is the fact that in both cases, they have been created with brutal honesty and brave hearts. It's so hard to distance oneself from the recording far enough to be objective, after listening to every last detail so intently. All I can say is that I hope the initial reactions from within our innermost circle do indeed foreshadow a widespread positive reception. To have such powerful reactions from our doombrothers, select media figures, and labels towards the CDR advances we sent out, certainly is a great vote of confidence for me. Even if this album is doomed to the bargain bins, I will still continue performing music of deep emotion and integrity, until the need for expression passes. At any rate, we are certainly striving to have this album made more readily available via a larger entity than Eibon, but our long association with them will remain intact; I opted to go with Mauro's label because of a mutual love and respect for each other's music, artistry, and ideals. Mauro only releases music he adores and believes wholeheartedly in…which I respect. Eibon is not profit motivated whatsoever, and happily exists in the sub-underground, safely away from every little shit wearing a Cradle Of Filth shirt; no ads, no gimmicks, and only just recently (after 45 releases) has Eibon begun issuing promos. Instead of spending his money on commercial avenues, Mauro instead invests in extravagant packaging that does not exist anywhere else in the industry, therefore making each Eibon release a unique work of art. Nevertheless, given the outrageous cost of recording "Empires" and the "more accessible" nature of the album, we see no reason for not at the very least recouping our budget via a licensing to a larger entity, so that we may begin recording the NEXT album. But, the Eibon pressing is a very special item for sure, that will feature this tracklist and artwork specifically…any other version will actually feature other songs, and will be packaged in a regular jewel case.

The Drowning Years forms both the opening song of the album and the 7" single. It was an apt choice for introducing the somewhat fresh slant to the new material. Has the way in which the band composes songs changed? It seems that more time has been invested in refining the music. Each track feels balanced. Any comments?

The primary difference between this album and its predecessors is the fact that the music was composed before the lyrics this time, so there was a greater focus on musicality and craftsmanship from the onset. Also, in the past, we did not choose to incorporate every last nuance and idea as much, but on "Empires," we experimented with EVERY idea that came up, and we kept almost 90% of them in the final recording. One thing that helped was the fact that we took reference CDR's home after every session in the studio, which were micro-analysed to the bone. We actually had the entire summer off because the studio was blocked out by another artist, so we had months to tear apart the rough mixes, develop the harmonies, and prepare ourselves for the final tracking and mixdown. Everything on this recording is intentional and we returned to the studio in November with confidence. Don't get me wrong here; all of the songs developed through revelations and heart, but the recording itself was very thoroughly planned, every step of the way by Jim Hunter and myself. The only other thing that has evolved in terms of the musical composition is the fact that I am employing all of the concepts and tools I was given in college, studying classical composition, whereas, the entirety of "Chapter One" was composed whilst I was still 16-18 years old, merely developing a sound and establishing an identity, "Empires" onward is at the very least, more mature, and the sound of WHW is distinctly its own.

Perhaps the most stunning song from the album is Soulsadness. Two elements particularly strike me. Firstly, the intense riffing, the melody and the rhythm of guitar and drums alike are reminiscent to the style of Revelation. Then the broad vocal range you employ over the backdrop of the piano brought to mind Ireland's very own Arcane Sun. Do you feel you share common ground either outfit?

It's interesting that you point out "Soulsadness," because we, as a band, feel as if we were most successful in recording that particular piece; it has a nearly flawless production in terms of our ideals, and is definitely a massive journey from start to finish. What is almost unbelievable is that particular song was literally composed in about the length of the song! I had the "Revelation" riff and the ending for a little while, then came up with the chorus that tied them all together. Anyway, there is definitely a bit of Revelation in WHW period since Jim is also their bassist as well, but this song in particular (especially the opening sequence) is very reminiscent of their later work. There are numerous musical acknowledgements throughout this album, and this song even…definitely a "tip of the hat" to "Finished With You," a song of theirs I absolutely adore; when I came up with the riff I thought it sounded like them, but only after we threw in the cymbal choke did it become apparent that it was strikingly similar. But being that Jim is in both bands, and there hasn't been any new Revelation material in years, we figured "why the fuck not?" It's going to be interesting hearing what other people pick up on in this song, and the album in general…everyone seems to hear something completely different. Regarding Arcane Sun, I am not familiar with them, but perhaps you'd be so kind as to send us a dub?

What is especially pleasing for me is to see your roots still proudly shining through. Not only have we another version of Sorrow Of The Angels (also the B side of The Drowning Years 7") but a rendition of Episode No 81. Personally, I think the timing is ripe as While Heaven Wept has evolved beyond simple Candlemass comparisons into a unique entity all its own. Please tell us about this choice. Why now?

I've been wanting to do a version of "Epistle" for many years actually, because I think it is one of the most beautiful songs of all time, and it was one of the first compositions I thought of when we originally started the "Empires" project, which at the time was only going to be an EP, hence the inclusion of a cover. It is also a much less obvious choice for a Candlemass cover than say, "Solitude" or "Mirror, Mirror" so that is totally a plus for me, because when we actually DO covers or adaptations, I prefer to choose more obscure songs, that may be overlooked or worse, forgotten. Mind you, "Epistle" is very famous in Sweden, because it was composed by their equivalent of Shakespeare, Carl Michael Bellman, so our version was done with the utmost respect I assure you. And Danny, I really appreciate your perspective that we have evolved beyond being a Candlemass clone…I think that WHW does have a distinct sound at this point as well. Even "Epistle" was done in our style as opposed to an exact cover of the Candlemass version. However, it does also serve as a "fuck off" to a few ignorant bastards who have written us off as a Candlemass clone or proclaimed this genre of music has run its course. Even though we are not simply a clone, I proudly wear my influences on my sleeve, and carry the flag of Epic Doom Metal, especially whilst some of these money-hungry labels flood the market with 5th and 6th generation Peaceville clones, pawning them off as Doom…or simply promoting music without heart, soul, conviction, and identity. That is the epitome of falsehood, and I will battle alongside the TRUE until the very last breath.

On a slight tangent what are your views on the Candlemass reissues, reformation and recent festival appearances? Do you think it may lead them back into a studio? I think a few folk have their fingers crossed!

I am very happy about all of the activity in the Candlemass camp! I absolutely love the reissues…they sound great, the re-mastering DID make some difference, especially in the bass response. Plus, all these bonus tracks are so awesome to have preserved on CD now. As for the possibility of a new album, well that would be absolutely killer…I just hope that Messiah and Leif can agree enough to make it happen! But I would settle for a US tour…Ha ha!

Speaking of re-releases the back catalogue of While Heaven Wept has come together in a splendid gatefold DLP entitled Chapter One. Was there a building demand for it as your albums can be difficult to hunt down at the best of times? I do commend the vinyl only decision! Was the intention to reward vinyl lovers or did you hope to lure CD fans back into the fold?

Basically everything from that first decade is completely out of print, and will not be re-pressed anytime in the foreseeable future, so it seemed logical to assemble everything together to commemorate the end of "Chapter One." It would give everyone out there one last chance to own this material in its originally recorded form. None of our songs will be lost mind you, as we are gradually re-recording all of that earlier material, and slowly releasing over the next few years, on several different forthcoming releases along with many brand new compositions. The vinyl only choice was for two reasons: one, I wanted it to be a special gift for the fanatics especially, and secondly, because it would be extremely limited due to the format itself, and I did not want to extend the lifespan of these particular recordings much further; I am not dismissing their value…they are very meaningful to me, but are not at all representative of who we are now. Again, my perspective is that all of those recordings are little more than demos and developmental works, and from the very beginning I've intended to develop all of these pieces into large-scale, orchestrated Epics, which is what we are doing now, along with composing brand new material. We have so much to rehearse and record in the coming years it is insane! But, we will deliver, or die trying.

Is there a specific reason why there are two different covers for a small pressing of 500? I kindly inherited both!

There are two different covers because the first one (the brown/silver cover) was a complete mispressing! Unfortunately, to have it printed correctly Metal Supremacy had to invest more money even though the production plant was at fault. It was definitely a debacle, but makes for some great Ebay material if nothing else!

The neat timing of both Chapter One DLP and Of Empires Forlorn appears significant. Does the band feel it has embarked on Chapter Two?

Absolutely. Chapter Two is significant, because we have now clearly established our own identity, and the music we are developing is much more mature in my opinion. This very well could be the "golden era" of WHW, but it is obviously too soon to know. If I have the luxury of looking back upon this time in a few decades, perhaps this will become more clear, but if nothing else, I am damn proud of "Empires…" because we worked SO hard on this album, it sounds better than our previous recordings, and it is even more brutally honest.

Can we expect another vinyl version of the new album? If so will the artwork differ to the CD or will there be any additional bonus tracks as in the Metal Supremacy Records tradition with previous records by Solstice and Twisted Tower Dire?

Inevitably there will indeed be a vinyl pressing, but we have not solidified any plans just yet; we are still trying to find a label that will release the CD in an unlimited capacity, and some labels do vinyl and CD's themselves already. Hermann and Andrea of Metal Supremacy have expressed interest in releasing ALL forthcoming WHW material on vinyl, and they will always have the first option if our "mother" label does not produce vinyl itself. As for the artwork, it will be different on ALL pressings and formats; the Eibon art is 100% exclusive to the digipak. We have already developed variations for the vinyl and regular jewel box pressings so, in some cases, it is indeed completely different art. We have also recorded other songs during the "Empires…" sessions that will turn up on the second 7" single as well as the unlimited CD pressing and the vinyl.

How strong is the current line up? Would you consider touring on the back of the new album? I would imagine that there are some contradicting responsibilities in the band as Jim Hunter also plays with both October 31 and Twisted Tower Dire. Is this the case or does the experience and diversity benefit the band?

The core of this line-up, the actual full-time members who recorded this album (Jason Gray - drums, Scott Loose - guitar, Jim Hunter - bass, and myself handling vocals, guitars, and keyboards) is very strong because we get along extremely well personally, and we all believe in this music. No line-up has ever remained consistent for more than a couple years in our history, but I am positive that this one will at least complete two more recordings, which we are rehearsing for currently. WHW will not be touring in support of "Empires" this year, because we simply cannot afford to do so financially, so instead the plan is to complete the recording of the next album "Vast Oceans Lachrymose" this year, and come over to tour in 2004, in support of both releases, even if we have to self-finance the entire affair. Mind you, if a larger label does in fact license the album, and provides us with tour support, we may be over much sooner than that…we'll just have to see what pans out in the coming months. As for Herr Hunter, don't forget he is also in Revelation and a couple other projects too! He is a VERY busy man…Ha ha. Really, everyone in WHW is involved with other musical projects, but in Jim's case, he serves a much more active role with us than the other bands; he contributes to the compositions, productions, development of plans, and in a financial sense as well. Theoretically, at this point WHW is as much Jim's baby as it is mine. We definitely developed "Empires" together without a doubt. He may not contribute riffs or songs necessarily, but he does come up with so many killer ideas and nuances, at this point, whatever he suggests, we just implement it without questioning it too much. Everyone's musical diversity helps to make WHW what it is; Jason, Scott, and Jim all bring something to the table, and their value is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How is the music network in Virginia for bands, zines, radio stations, clubs and Heavy Metal maniacs?

There are a lot of Metal maniacs here for sure, especially when you look at the broader geography, which includes Washington DC and Baltimore, Maryland (these cities are within a 50 mile radius of Northern Virginia), but there are very few clubs, radio stations, and publications that support True Metal here unfortunately. We are pretty much relegated to dives and private parties to be honest. Just like the majority of the US, True Metal does not receive any support from the larger populace. That is why we all go to Europe or Japan…at least people have taste there, and can think beyond what they are being fed by larger record and media corporations. One thing that is interesting about this area is almost everybody has played in a band with everybody else at one point or another, because there is such a small pool of talent to draw from, even though there are plenty of fans of heavier music. I can't say there is a strong "scene" here because there is so much in the way of backstabbing and infighting, but there are a number of significant bands in this area including: Deceased, October 31, Twisted Tower Dire, Brave, Pentagram, Grand Belial's Key, Arghoslent, Division, WHW, and half of Revelation as well. There are certainly plenty of others that have come from this area on the doomed side of things in the past as well, regardless of our opinions of them: Spirit Caravan, Rain Fell Within, Earthride, Internal Void, Iron Man, Unorthodox, and Wretched…most of the infamous Hellhound Records roster originated in the DC area.

What has been the most memorable gig you have ever attended and why?

That is as difficult of a question as asking what my favourite album of all time is! Well, perhaps not: In February 1996, I met Steve Perry of Journey, who is my all-time favourite singer of my favourite band. He has been like a God to me since I was like 4 years old, so to meet him finally, and have the chance to thank him for inspiring me to be who I am was so fulfilling. His performance that evening was incredible…very moving and warming. I will never forget how cool he was to me, and because of that, I will NEVER support Journey without him; they were bastards to force him to choose between touring and making a personal health decision. At any rate, I've seen so many amazing shows that it would be impossible to choose between them otherwise, but some of the best of all time include: Queensryche (Promised Land tour especially), Fates Warning, Rush, Yes, Kitaro, Styx, Triumph, Dead Can Dance, and Porcupine Tree. I realize that there is not much in the way of Metal here, but most of those shows tend to suffer from sound problems it seems, although Slayer in 1987 was storming and the first Sepultura/Obituary/Sadus tour was also phenomenal.

I wonder how broad a range of music you listen to. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me as to your preferred soundtrack to each of the following:

Personally, I listen to everything except rap and gospel. I have over 6,000 CD's, a reasonable vinyl collection, and tons of Mp3's; everything from classical to jazz to new age, and (sigh) yes, even country. But here are my responses to your scenarios:

- A cool crisp winter's morning - Either the Chopin Nocturnes, some Bach chamber music, or some dark wave along the lines of Caul, or Raison D'etre. Or Immortal…Ha ha

- Prior to a band practice - We usually listen to whatever new CD's that Jim and I have acquired over the course of the week. Recent gatherings prior to practice have included spins of Fates Warning, Arcturus, Ulver, Candlemass, Devin Townsend, Saviour Machine, and Green Carnation. And Immortal!

- Over a few jars of cider - Ah…this is when all the classics come out: Sabbath, Purple, Priest, Maiden, Witchfinder, AC/DC, Slayer, Pentagram, Trouble…and Immortal!

- After discovering your car has been stolen (bad luck!) - Immortal Ha ha! Probably some blistering thrash like Razor, Viking, Dark Angel, Sadus, or Slayer…because someone is going to get fucked up when they are discovered!

If my hunch is correct your answers will vary considerably and perhaps beyond traditional Heavy Metal fields. So the focus returns to Doom Metal. Please recommend some of your favourite albums and in your opinion some of the most underrated albums from the genre.

Candlemass- "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" and "Nightfall"
Solitude Aeturnus - "Into The Depths Of Sorrow" and "Beyond The Crimson Horizon"
Solstice - "Lamentations," "Halcyon," and "New Dark Age"
Revelation - "Yet So Far" and "Frozen Masque" (actually I worship "Never Comes Silence," but the vocals are a bit hard to digest)
Trouble - " Psalm 9," "The Skull," and "Trouble"
Pagan Altar - "Volume 1"
Witchfinder General - "Death Penalty"
Black Sabbath - "Black Sabbath" through "Sabotage"
King Crimson - "In The Court Of The Crimson King" (I don't care what anyone says, KC was the first Epic Doom band…listen to "Epitaph" and "In The Wake Of Poseidon")
St. Vitus - "Saint Vitus," "Hallow's Victim," "The Walking Dead," and "Die Healing"
Pentagram - "Relentless," "Day Of Reckoning," and "Be Forewarned," plus ALL of the 70's recordings

That sums up most of the essentials really for me, and I don't think anyone will underrate those, but there are plenty of underrated bands out there who I adore like Dawn Of Winter, Mirror Of Deception, Millarca, Forlorn, Warning, Cold Mourning, Reverend Bizarre…plus some of the newer bands like Orodruin. And yes, I do listen to some Death/Doom like the early Peaceville releases, and some Funeral Doom like Shape Of Despair, but that has little to do with True Doom, and I do not lump it all in together like some people do.

Will you be making any sojourns to Doom Metal festivals in 2003? Have you considered coming to Europe for the Doom Shall Rise Festival although While Heaven Wept is not playing? Who would ever have put money on Revelation being one of the big names on the bill?

Unfortunately because I've spent every last penny on the recording of the album, I have no money for travelling at the current time. This definitely bums me out to no end, but I will at least be at Doom Shall Rise in spirit, and Jim will be there representing WHW in some capacity. As I have mentioned previously, if Doom Shall Rise II comes to fruition, WHW will DEFINITELY be playing it. As for Revelation headlining DSR one night, as well as the whole tour with MOD and Reverend Bizarre, I for one think it is absolutely killer. I wish I were coming over for the whole tour! I am very very happy that Dennis and the boys have decided to resurrect the band, and I can assure you that while they are not performing any of the new songs on this particular tour, I've heard the rehearsal tapes of the album, and it is going to be one of the best Doom releases in a long damn time! I always hoped they would get back together, and I think that they deserve to by high on the bill…they were one of the first Doom bands period, and have already done tours with Vitus and Solitude as a support act…but they deserve to headline in my opinion, even after this hiatus.

If you have made it this far Tom you have excelled yourself! Perhaps as rumour has it you have the gift of the gab. Have you ever kissed the Blarney Stone in County Cork?

(Laughing) Cheers Danny! It was a struggle, but somehow I managed…Ha ha. No, I have not kissed the Blarney Stone, but if you promise to buy us a pint or two, then I shall do so upon my return to Europe!

Tom thank you for your honesty, patience and an absolutely stunning come back record! While Heaven Wept has truly reaffirmed its position in heavy music. May 2003 be the year lady luck smiles upon the band. Any last sentiments?

Thank you for the extremely flattering and gratifying interview Danny. Best of luck with Abandon All Hope; the world certainly needs more Doom Zines without question. Cheers for the good wishes as well. Otherwise, I just want to thank all of our brethren and fans for simply ruling. Anyone seeking information regarding While Heaven Wept can contact us through www.whileheavenwept.com or snail mail: While Heaven Wept, attn: Tom Phillips, 4809 Lockwood Lane, Dale City, Va. 22193, USA

Doom forever onward…