Interview for Obliveon, June 2003
1. A lot of the songs you released on "Chapter One" were written over ten years ago. Do you still think they passed the test of time? Do you see differences in the songwriting back ten years ago today? Did the musical as well as the lyrical influences change with a growing age?
I personally think that the songs themselves stand the test of time, especially considering they continue to grow and develop over the years. The productions on the other hand, leave much to be desired, hence the re-recording of all of the earlier material (besides the fact that all of the releases from the first decade are now forever out-of-print). The songwriting process is still essentially the same now, in that I only write through revelations sparked by emotional catalysts as far as the basic song structures are concerned, and afterwards I'll sit down and complete the arrangements on paper. The one major difference is the quality of the arrangements, due largely in part to having acquired a degree in classical composition (whereas all of the material from the first decade was composed while I was still in high school). Regarding influences, lyrically everything is still entirely based upon events in my life, and the only difference between the material on "Chapter One" and "Of Empires Forlorn" is that the former focused entirely upon one relationship, and the latter addresses several other relationships and events that have occurred since the demise of that one. Musically, the primary influences are also the same, but my listening palette has expanded quite a bit over the past 14 years, and being that I am influenced by everything that I ever hear in one way or another, the scope has indeed widened.
2. The list of your musical influences is incredibly long and I think all of them left their traces in the music of While Heaven Wept, but I wonder what was the initial idea to write doom metal.
I can't say that we set out to be a doom metal band initially, but after some life-altering events early on, the nature of the music changed and it became clear that our music could be classified as that. That is not to say that Candlemass, Black Sabbath, and Trouble did not heavily inspire us among other doom metal artists, but the fact of the matter is Fates Warning, Queensryche, Celtic Frost, Slayer, and even Voivod were equally inspirational. As previously mentioned, at this point in time, I would have to say we are influenced by obscure 70's progressive rock bands and cutting-edge artists like Arcturus, and Devin Townsend, as much as we are inspired by those original influences.
3. Did you ever ask yourself where this melancholy, being an important and integral part of the doom-community, came from? Where does it come from with regards to your character and personality?
I guess there are just a lot of really depressed musicians out there (laughing). To be honest, I cannot speak of the doom-community as a whole on this particular subject because I feel that it is a very individual and personal matter that would have to be discussed on a case-by-case basis. What I can say is that it is my perspective that while there are many artists composing heartfelt music within the scene, there is an even larger populace of bands performing "doom for the sake of doom" which is completely contrived, barren of true depth, and ultimately unfulfilling. For me personally, my whole life I've been surrounded by death, disappointment, and loss - all of my music is the only means I have to cope with that. I think the reason our latest recording exudes feelings of both triumph and despair is resultant of my learning the concept of acceptance more than anything else, but I can say that everything we do is completely genuine as unfortunate as that may be. Should I ever feel at peace, you can rest assured that I will not be writing melancholic music.
4. Why do you think is there such a big underground scene with regards to doom metal and what makes this scene so special? Do you have contact to other doom bands outside the Miskatonic-family, Tristitia for example?
Even considering all the varieties and sub-genres of doom, the scene is still relatively small compared to the death and black metal scenes for example. What makes the doom metal scene different from a lot of other genres is the overall familial atmosphere between the bands - at least within the sub-genres of doom; there is definitely turbulence between true doom bands and death/doom and stoner bands, but within each of the sub-genres everyone gets along pretty well. I'm not in contact with Tristitia personally, but I've been networking with bands all over the world for well over 10 years now, and we have formed many alliances within the doom community as a whole, including members of the Miskatonic-family, the "freelance" true doom bands (although almost all of the true doom bands are members of the Circle Of True Doom at this point), and even several of the death/doom bands as well. As we become more established in the underground, I make it a point to introduce new and upcoming bands to as many people as possible, to help perpetuate this genre of music, even if we are gradually evolving into a genre of our own.
5. What is the most important aspect when it comes to the songwriting process? The overall atmosphere of the song, the melancholy, the melody, the lyrics or the whole of the song? I'm sure you've heard a thousand times before that "Voice In The Wind", originally written by Klaus Hess from German Krautrock legend Jane, and "Sorrow Of The Angels" are outstanding While Heaven Wept songs (and adaptations). When do you consider a song to be complete and how long does it take to write songs? Do you have a certain kind of formula when writing songs?
I can't isolate any one particular aspect as being more important than another when it comes to songwriting; the lyrics and music are equally important for While Heaven Wept. All that matters is that the writing is honest and inspired. The closest to completion a song ever comes for me is when what I hear in my head and heart is fully realized - but considering I allow the songs to breathe and grow, they are never truly finished. As far as the length of time it takes for the basic structure of a composition to be completed, it varies from song to song; some are fully composed within a matter of minutes, while others take months or even years to be finished. Being that I consider true realization to include the development of the arrangements as well as the recording of the pieces, it takes quite some time to reach that stage. There is absolutely no formula to the songwriting of While Heaven Wept. Seldom do I ever implement the standard verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus approach; sometimes I do opt for traditional classical forms like sonata-allegro or theme and variations, but even that is a pretty rare occurrence. Often lyrics and music are revealed to me in fragments and develop naturally into some kind of musical form, but I am sure you'll notice how often WHW songs don't include proper solos or choruses (particularly on the "Chapter One" material), but do feature lengthy and varied instrumental segments, and numerous transitions in meter and mood. I do strive to make every composition distinctive in its own right. I've read some reviews, particularly from non-doom fans that complain that all the songs sound the same, but that couldn't be further from the truth; it's true that there is always this huge wall of sound, and that often the music is slow, but compared to a lot of other doom out there, WHW is extremely varied, and growing to become even more so.
6. When it comes to the lyrics, it seems as if all of them are very emotional, resulting from your personal experiences within relationships and life in general, in contrast to bands like Candlemass who also tend to tell stories or write fictional lyrics. Would you agree that writing lyrics for you is also some kind of relief or mental therapy to get rid of bad feelings, emotions and experiences you made?
Absolutely - the primary goal of my lyrics is to achieve some sort of catharsis, or at least allow me the opportunity to express things I am unable to say otherwise because of circumstance, or in the past, because of fear. It is indeed very therapeutic for me to compose and perform these songs, even though there are occasions where I end up reliving them and/or re-open the wounds. In maintaining this brutal honesty about the negative aspects of my life, I am more capable of coming to terms with them, accepting or resolving them, and carrying on without the burden of them. I've never sought sympathy from anyone, and just about all of the songs are directed towards a specific individual or group of people.
7. According to the liner notes to "Chapter One" it seems as if you still have tons of unreleased songs, or are these just additional versions of the songs on "Chapter One"? If not, what do these songs sound like?
There are quite a few unreleased songs, as you can imagine being a band of 14 years, primarily very early compositions, but there are in fact songs from every era of WHW that never were released. Many of them only exist on rehearsal tapes, but we have in fact recorded additional songs during every studio session as well. Most of those were abandoned at various stages of completion (for example the unfinished "Unplenitude" that was included on "Chapter One" from the "Sorrow Of The Angels sessions) for one reason or another - usually because they were not turning out successfully in my opinion, or because they did not fit into the overall flow of a particular release (all of the WHW releases are thematic in some respect, and I do design the recordings to have a smooth flow from song to song). As far as what these songs sound like, they are extremely varied; some of the earlier ones are very riff-oriented with thrashing sections and progressive structures, others are very much in the epic doom metal vein, whilst others (like "Unplenitude") sound like nothing else WHW has done. A good example of the latter would be the song "Lost (In Retrospect)" which was written in 1993, never recorded by WHW, but later was included on the "Waist Deep In Dark Waters" EP released by the band Brave in 2000, with whom I was involved at the time (most of the current members of WHW have at one time been or are involved with Brave, who are a female-fronted neo-progressive rock band with both self-financed releases and recordings on the Dark Symphonies label). We will be recording a few of the unreleased songs in the near future for inclusion on the "Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition" release, but I am sure there will be others that will sit on the shelf for the rest of our existence.
8. Also according to the liner notes of "Chapter One" you thank more than "50 individuals" that were part of While Heaven Wept all over the years. I guess that is an incredibly high number of former musicians and therefore I wonder what the main reasons for all the line-up changes have been. IS it difficult working with you and sharing the same artistic vision as you do, which by no means should be a reproach.
A lot of the line-up changes occurred while WHW was still in its infancy; I was barely 15 years old when I started the band, and as with any band that is first started with friends in school, you'll have people that are more committed than others or improving on their instruments more quickly than others. Over the course of the first 5 years, a lot of the members simply moved on to other things - college, relocating to other areas, opting for family life, quitting music, etc., and that trend continued as I went on through college. Many former members gave up metal in pursuit of careers in jazz and classical music, or went on to form their own musical projects. Though the line-up has stabilized long enough for us to record a few times in the past decade, the revolving door has seldom stopped turning. This is due largely in part to the fact that for years, WHW has been comprised of members of other bands, so as those other projects take on a greater importance, I've had to look elsewhere to keep this band going. Admittedly, in the beginning I was pretty hard to work with because I had a very strong vision, and also I was not exactly willing to trust anyone unless they put in a reasonable amount of time and effort, but that really isn't the reason behind any line-up changes in the recent past. These days, a core line-up has developed from the 1999 live band, and it is much more democratic than previous incarnations; we have a stronger chemistry and a much clearer idea of exactly what this band requires. But I still anticipate more changes in the future (laughing).
9. After such a long time of existence it finally seems as if the metal world and not just the underground scene is paying more and more attention to While Heaven Wept, mainly based on the "Chapter One: 1989-1999" and "Of Empires Forlorn" releases, would you agree?
Well I can say that every week there are more and more reviews, articles, and interviews, so it appears that WHW is getting a fair amount of exposure based on these two releases. On one hand this could be attributed to sticking to our guns long enough for people to accept that we aren't going away, but on another hand, we have definitely come into our own in the respect that we have clearly established a signature sound now; I do perceive the works of the past to be little more than developmental, but "Empires" is a mature work with a very unique sound. Something else to consider is the fact that we've invested a lot more time, effort, and money, not just into the recording, but also the promotion of it, and the Internet also gives us an infinite number of avenues to spread the word, something we did not have the luxury of in the early days. We've been very comfortable existing in sub-underground realms for all these years, but we recognize the fact that, right now, WHW fills a void in the scene, and we are managing to reach wider audiences without compromising our ideals. Even with the signing of the Rage Of Achilles licensing deal, we are still the same do-it-yourself band that we were in 1989, but at this point in time we feel as though it is not unreasonable to seek replenishment of our recording budget so that we can move onto the next project. While I don't place any limitations upon us, historically it seems there is only so far a doom band can go, and it's never been a lucrative genre of music, but if we can help bring more attention to the scene in general, then that is a great thing. Hopefully all of our brethren will benefit from the attention we are getting.
10. Does it frighten you when you hear and read that "Of Empires Forlorn" is being called the "holy grail of doom metal"? Does it put some pressure on you for upcoming releases or do you take it for what it is: a big compliment for your good work all over the years?
That is a pretty intimidating statement isn't it? Obviously perspectives such as that are extremely flattering and gratifying after all these years, and to be honest, I probably would be quite alarmed at the prospect of living up to that in the future, if it weren't for the fact that we already had a large portion of the next all-new album "Vast Oceans Lachrymose" written when we entered the studio to record "Empires." I know that material is just as strong if not stronger than the "Empires" material, and relying upon the sincerity of our expressions has never lead us astray in the past. That is the most important thing - brutally honest expression of who we are in the present tense; I'm not concerned with trying to top "Empires" because what is to come is a completely different entity. We didn't do "Sorrow Of The Angels part II" and we won't be doing "Of Empires Forlorn part II" either rather, we will take advantage of the boundaries we've expanded and allow the music to progress naturally into whatever it becomes. As I've said hundreds of times before, I will not perform doom for the sake of being doom, and "Vast Oceans Lachrymose" will be demonstrative of this - not that we are abandoning doom completely, but overall the material it will be comprised of is a lot more diverse than anything we've done in the past, and is a logically successor to "Empires." I am sure that some doom purists will winge about it, and I do appreciate that militant perspective, but to do anything less than be true to ourselves and what we feel would be blasphemous and the epitome of falsehood.
11. Can you believe that some of your releases like the "Lovesongs Of The Forsaken" CD have become such expensive collectors items?
I suppose it's always the case that when a band releases something that gets a lot of attention like "Empires" or "Chapter One," that newcomers to the music will want the earlier releases as well. Being that all of the original releases from the first decade were pressed in extremely limited quantities, and are literally all out-of-print, I imagine that they would become somewhat collectable. I really have no idea what the value of such items is at this point in time, but I'd endeavour to suggest that unless you are a fanatic or collector, don't waste your money on those earlier releases; all of that material is resurfacing inevitably, in the form of much stronger performances and higher quality productions, beginning with the tracks included on the "Empires" album. If you are hell-bent on hearing the original versions of those songs, pick up a copy of "Chapter One" before it too is out-of-print, because once that is gone, those particular recordings will never be made available again.
12. You lived in the UK for quite a while and then relocated back to the US. Are there major differences between the doom metal-scene in Europe and the US?
The European community has always been much more active and supportive of doom metal than anywhere else in the world, and as a testament to that, all of our major recordings are exclusive to Europe. In the States, there are plenty of bands, but they only find support and sanctuary in Europe, plain and simple. Only recently have bands like WHW, Penance, and Orodruin begun to receive any kind of mainstream exposure in the press here; with the exception of a couple key writers in the past like Jeff Wagner, there has been virtually no support for doom metal in the US - from the media or the labels. Sure, the distributors will take a few copies of anything, but as far as anyone actually investing in or promoting a doom band? I am not suggesting that doom could ever be a popular genre of music anywhere, but at least there is a supportive network of labels, zines, distros, and bands in Europe. Honestly, only after 14 years have I ever even bothered to attempt to push our music in America, and even with "Empires," I am still focusing primarily on Europe. We don't even bother to play live more than a couple times here for any release, and think about this - 2003 marked the first all-doom event in the US ever - the Born Too Late festival. Prior to that all we had were hybrid events of stoner rock crap and true doom, which only served to further confuse the already apathetic American listening public, regardless of how noble the intentions of the organizers were. When all is said and done, Europe has been and will always be the true home for doom, and considering that, I just may be returning there permanently in the future, even if WHW grows beyond the confines of pure doom. Hail To Europe! And Thank You!
13. What can we expect for the future of While Heaven Wept?
In the immediate future, watch for a split 7" with The Doomsday Cult in Sweden, and the unlimited edition of the "Empires" album coming on Rage Of Achilles Records in September 2003. There will also be a vinyl pressing of the album, and another 7" single as well. After that the next major release will be the "Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition," which will include the entire 1998 album re-recorded, several bonus tracks of unreleased songs originally recorded during the 1997 sessions (also re-recorded), and completely re-mixed and re-mastered versions of select songs from the original sessions (so no one will totally want to kill me for tampering with things like "Thus With A Kiss I Die") (laughing). Immediately following "Sorrow" will be the "Vast Oceans Lachrymose" album, which will contain nothing but all-new material that we are continuing to develop and rehearse right now. That is pretty much the extent of my plans for WHW at this point in time.
14. Can we ever expect European shows of While Heaven Wept? I guess you've heard of the doom festival that took place in the south of Germany. Have you been in contact with these guys, maybe for future shows?
Well, although I cannot give you any specific details at this time, I will tell you this: While Heaven Wept WILL be coming to Europe in the early spring of 2004! It is long, long overdue, and we are very much looking forward to finally coming over to take everyone into the wells of sorrow. We will be performing material from all of the releases, including some never-before-heard music from the forthcoming CD's. I assume you are talking about the Doom Shall Rise festival that first occured earlier this year... I've known Jochen for many, many years now, and have also recently been in contact with Frank as well. At this point in time it is no secret that While Heaven Wept will be performing at Doom Shall Rise tour in conjunction with our European tour next Spring. I want to stress that this tour and festival may be the only opportunity for people there to see WHW live for many years, and possibly ever, so do not hesitate to come out to see us, we'd love to see everyone who we've been in contact with all these years turn up to at least one of the gigs, have a pint with us, and allow us the opportunity to give something back to you. Even if I do relocate to Europe someday, there is no guarantee I will form a new WHW there, and this is your one opportunity to see the original US line-up live. Come to the Empires Forlorn...
and doom forever onward...