Interview for Slow Ride, June 2003

UD: First off, I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to do this interview, Tom. I know you're in the middle of doing some studio work right now, so the sacrifice is not lost on me.

TP: No worries my friend, I certainly understand the time sensitive nature of publishing, and I knew you’d have some intriguing questions. Fortunately I have a day off to do this!

UD: Your newest release, Of Empires Forlorn, is a brilliant album. Are you pleased with the response it has received, thus far?

TP: So far the response has been nothing short of overwhelmingly positive, and that is definitely a relief, considering we did not know how people would react to our evolution. We worked really hard on this album, so for people all over the world to hail it as “the best doom album of 2003,” “one of the top 5 doom albums of all time,” or even “one of the best albums of all time,” is EXTREMELY gratifying. I’m glad that we didn’t let anyone down, including ourselves (laughs).

UD: With the Of Empires Forlorn album, While Heaven Wept have pushed the boundaries of epic doom as far as one could and still have the music be metal. Was there ever any point during the process of creation you thought you might've pushed things too far?

TP: Towards the end of the recording process, when we were overdubbing the keyboards, guitar solos, and vocals, we knew the album had evolved quite a bit from what we had initially envisioned. It really took on a life of its own, and we just let it be. We would hear things that we thought should be in there, and took the time to realize every last detail. I think around the time the vocals were being tracked there was a bit of trepidation in the studio because no one, including myself expected them to turn out the way that they did. The keys, vocals, and guitar harmonies transformed this album into something that defied description; I mean we were cracking up when Jim said “man this sounds like a cross between Celtic Frost and Styx!” – but sure enough that description wasn’t too far off. I think there was some concerns within the band like “this doesn’t sound like the WHW I know anymore,” but the fact of the matter is this is what we sound like now, and after years of development, our signature sound is indeed established. I think we pushed things just far enough to give us more options in the future, without forsaking our foundations. In essence “Empires…” is everything I set out to do with While Heaven Wept from the beginning in terms of production as well as both musically and lyrically.

UD: One could say there is a lot of "commercial viability" in the Of Empires Forlorn material. Does it concern you that the fact this music is tailor made for a wider audience might cause some in the doom metal community to claim they feel "alienated" by WHW, especially as insincere and wishy-washy as many within the "scene" have grown over the last couple of years?

TP: While I agree that there are some “more accessible” songs on this album, I don’t think I would go so far as to say “Empires…” is “commercially viable;” I mean its still an Epic Doom Metal album when all is said and done, albeit far more progressive than your average release coming from this genre, but still not “safe” enough for mainstream audiences. I don’t see any reason why a band cannot perform extremely heavy music with equally catchy melodies – a quality song is still paramount in my opinion, regardless of the genre of music it is from. Admittedly, I was a bit concerned that we’d upset our core audience and the die-hard doom fanatics, but that was swiftly quelled with the first few reviews and reactions. No one expected “Empires” to be what it is, however its been embraced as a fine addition to the legacy of Epic Doom Metal. A few people have suggested that the parts reminiscent of Journey were a bit much for them, but that’s just how they came out (shrugs) – hell, I did not expect that either, but they are an influence admittedly. I just did not ever foresee that influence coming out in the music of WHW. Anyway, the way I see the album is a cross between Candlemass, early Fates Warning, Viking-era Bathory, Styx, and Bach – extremely Epic and emotional, progressive music. And it is heavier than anything we’ve done in the past, so its not like we’ve wimped out here. I don’t think we can go back to all slow doom in the future, as that would be both regressive and redundant, but the heavy Epic vibe will remain throughout the existence of WHW. Not that I am turning my back on doom in any way…it’s just that now WHW really can only be described as playing “While Heaven Wept music.”

UD: While most people think of WHW as an epic doom metal band, the first 7" was in the death/doom style. Though I'm not a big fan of that hybrid, these two songs really clicked for me. Is there some specific reason you decided not to go on in that style?

TP: I abandoned the death vocals a long, long time ago because they tended to obscure the emotion of the music, and made the lyrics indiscernible half of the time. When WHW began, we had a clean vocalist, and only after I first took on the vocal duties did I opt for the more aggressive vocal approach, but when the next singer came on board, we went right back to clean vocals. When I returned to the microphone a year or so later, I adopted the clean vocals for good. The origin of the first 7” is interesting because it was recorded at the same time as the “Lovesongs Of The Forsaken” release, which had all clean vocals, and “Into The Wells Of Sorrow” wasn’t really even meant to be an official release. Basically, one day I was pretty frustrated during a day of vocal tracking, and decided to blow off some steam. Our engineer kept the tapes rolling, and that’s how these versions of the songs came to be. Having been pressured by our friends for some kind of release after all that time (we’d been in existence for 5 years at that point in time), we decided to produce an extremely limited edition 7” for them, since it was clear that it would be another year before “Lovesongs…” was complete. We took a couple tracks from the “day of death vocals” and that’s how the 7” was born, strictly as a gift to our “inner circle.”

UD: With every WHW release, you seem to become more confident and powerful as a vocalist. Take us through that progression and how the growth was facilitated.

TP: It’s really just a natural progression I suppose. I really did not “find my voice” until around the time of the “Sorrow Of The Angels” album. I have not consistently been working on my vocals they way I should over the years, and I’m sure this growth cannot be attributed to a diet of alcohol, pot, and cigarettes (laughs)! For the “Empires” recording, Kevin our engineer really pushed me for the best takes I could produce, so I have to give him some credit. Also, I am a bit more comfortable with the role of lead vocalist now (remember I am a guitarist/songwriter first and foremost), but I still have a hard time living up to my ideals, considering my idols are John Arch, Geoff Tate, and Steve Perry.

UD: You mention in the liner notes of the Chapter One collection that "Thus With A Kiss I Die" off the Sorrow Of The Angels album is your most cherished composition. If you would, take us through the creation of this song. Does it remain your favorite piece?

TP: I still consider “Thus With A Kiss I Die” my first “masterwork,” in that it is a massive composition with a lot of orchestration and complex changes/moods, and it does capture perfectly the despair I felt when I lived through the events depicted in the lyrics, but I can’t say that any one song is my “favorite” of all. As for how the song developed, it began in 1990 as two separate songs “Bound By Depression” and “Dying” that were performed by the original WHW, but they ended up getting shelved along with several other early compositions as songs like “In Aeternum” and “Into The Wells Of Sorrow” took precedence. After the “Lovesongs…” MCD came out, one of the last things I jammed on with bassist Gabe Funston developed into the intro section of “Thus With A Kiss I Die.” From there, I had the vocal melody, and simply harmonized the guitars with it, recognizing some similarities to the aforementioned shelved songs. So I ended up dissecting those for a few more parts and the majority of the song took shape. I finished it up while I was living in England with Solstice; all that really was left undone were the last few transitions in the bridge section. By the time I returned to the States, I felt like everything was flowing properly, and we began rehearsing this mammoth piece for the next year before returning to the studio to capture it on tape. Like I said, I can’t really choose a favorite song, but “Thus…” is definitely high on my list, and a very important contribution to the development of WHW.

UD: How does the songwriting process generally work for you? I know you've continued to improve on past compositions years after the fact. Are you constantly coming up with new material in the midst of tweaking the older stuff?

TP: Both the music and lyrics come to me when they do; it’s 100% revelation, nothing is ever contrived. Once the basic exo-skeleton of a song is complete, I then take it to the table and develop the arrangements. There is no rhyme or reason to the songwriting process really; some songs are written in a matter of minutes, whilst others develop over several years. I am constantly coming up with new ideas, but I let the older songs grow and develop like the children they are just as often. Once the out-of-print “Sorrow Of The Angels” is re-released as (“Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition”), there will not be any further re-recordings of older songs, but they may continue to evolve in the live setting.

UD: You've mentioned before that you weren't completely happy with "The Death Of Love" off the Sorrow Of The Angels album, which was essentially an electric version of the Lovesongs Of The Forsaken track "La Mort D'Amour." What would you have changed to make the song more satisfactory, in your mind? Any plans to try again and get it down the way you really wanted it to be?

TP: I just felt like “The Death Of Love” was a good idea that was poorly executed, primarily because we were rushing to complete the album before we ran out of money. I would have liked a few more layers, and a nice set of modulations at the end personally. We did however develop the ideal hybrid of the two versions of the song during the live shows in support of the “Sorrow…” album; it is more like the original acoustic version, but with all the keys, vocals, and harmonies of the electric one. That’s what you’ll hear on the “Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition.”

UD: When most people think of doom metal, they don't think of acoustic guitars. Still, WHW have made tremendous use of acoustic instrumentation throughout the years, especially on the amazing, predominantly acoustic Lovesongs Of The Forsaken EP. Please, talk a bit about this unorthodox approach to doom metal and how you feel it fits in with or accentuates the style in general.

TP: Being that I equate doom with mood, I believe you can have an extremely heavy song emotionally without heavy guitars, for example Black Sabbath’s “Solitude.” I’ve never really have perceived the use of acoustics as “unorthodox” but I suppose its true that most bands don’t use them very often. I’ve always used them for two reasons: one, they provide a great dynamic contrast to the bombastic wall of our electric guitars, and secondly because they tend to resonate longer than just a clean electric would. I suppose I never really thought about it because our biggest influences, Candlemass and Fates Warning, both implemented quite a bit of acoustic guitar into their songs over the years. I just thought it was the norm man (laughs).

UD: How did the WHW/Cold Mourning split come about? What are your thoughts on that release?

TP: Hmmm you may want to ask Conan of Game Two Records about that, as I can’t quite remember (laughing). I know that I was in contact with both Cold Morning and Game Two, and I think it just developed during that series of split releases the label was doing at the time. I did request Cold Mourning’s “Frostbit” be their contribution because I loved that song, and still do, but most of the other details are a bit foggy now (laughing). It was great to do a split with our doombrothers, and someday we will do volume 2, something we’ve talked about since the first one came out. This is one of the hardest WHW releases to locate now, and even I only have my personal copies left at this point in time.

UD: On the Chapter One collection, there is a previously unreleased song called "Unplenitude." To my ears, it was somewhat reminiscent of bands like The Cure and Chameleons UK. Do you have, or have you ever had, more material in this vein?

TP: “Unplenitude” is definitely a one-off composition, and omitted from the “Sorrow Of The Angels” album because I decided that the record should be 100% pure doom metal, unlike many of the albums that were being released at that time. The song was written in a few minutes while I was living in England, inspired in no small part by Beyond Dawn’s “Pity Love” which I had an advance of from our (Solstice’s) label at the time, Candlelight Records. I think it’s a good song, but like the first 7” completely unrepresentative of WHW, and therefore a “lost track.” But not for long (laughing); I’ve developed a new arrangement for it that is much more somber, and it will also be included on the “Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition” coming sometime next year.

UD: Though I know you've stated that all the recordings compiled on the Chapter One 2LP weren't your ideal vision of how you wanted the songs on tape, are you able to recognize what genius efforts these were, now that some time has passed?

TP: Well, I’ve come to appreciate at least “Sorrow Of The Angels” for what it was at least, but generally I won’t be satisfied until I hear all the songs on tape the way I hear them in my head. This applies to both the production and the performance of all that material.

UD: You've actually been a member of Solstice in the past. When was this and what was your role within the band back then? Please, fill us in on this part of your history.

TP: I actually joined Solstice in 1995 and was with them until 1997, though most of our activity was throughout 1996. Essentially I was introduced to Solstice through my good friend John Perez of Solitude Aeternus, and happened to be over in the UK a short time afterwards with a local choir. Needless to say, I split on the choir, took a coach up to Yorkshire, and met up with Rich and the others. Having got along so well, and having a mutual respect for each other’s music I jokingly said, if you ever need a singer just let me know (at the time Simon and I sounded uncannily similar). Sure enough three days later, Simon left the band, and while Solstice was down in London, Rich said to me, if you want the job, you’ve got it. I accepted without hesitation. Needless to say I returned to England in 1996 and we rehearsed a bit, worked on some things that ended up on “New Dark Age,” and drank a hell of a lot of lager. Our collaboration that time was never as fruitful as it could have been because of the travel involved, the line-up instability, lack of label support, and my own inexperience being just a singer/lack of confidence. Fortunately, we’re getting another chance, as discussed in the next question.

UD: It should be noted that you're also in the vocalist slot for the reformed Solstice--at this rate, you'll shortly be in every truly great doom metal band. How did this come together? How do you manage the logistics of it, with the great Rich Walker being over in England? Can you provide an early take on how this new Solstice material is going to sound?

TP: Rich decided a few months after disbanding Solstice that he still had more to say, and really only needed people who were truly devoted to making it happen, so he called upon musicians he respects and trusts to form the new line-up. What is interesting, for the first time ever, Solstice is a predominantly American band with members coming from Twisted Tower Dire, While Heaven Wept, and The Lord Weird Slough Feg. Because of this, Rich will be coming over here to record when the time comes, and will in the meantime simply provide us with demos and riff tapes through the mail. Work won’t really commence on the new Solstice for several more months because of all of the other bands are busy touring or recording, and Rich is still focused on his NWOBHM inspired project Isen Torr for the time being. What I can say of the next Solstice release is that it will be entitled “To Sol A Thane” and will be a return to the pure epic doom metal of the “Lamentations” era, since Isen Torr is doing more of the battle metal thing. For ale, for Albion, for METAL!

UD: Who is Donna McKendree? The way you mention her in the liner notes of all the WHW albums, it sounds like she has had a massive impact on you and your music. Would you care to elaborate upon her influence or inspiration?

TP: She was my best friend and first true love – when that relationship came to an end it left a huge void in my life and many unanswered questions, which directly impacted the motive of WHW; the band became my vehicle for dealing with the grief, pain, and confusion that was left in the wake of that relationship’s demise. It was not only the most crippling loss in my life up to that point, but it was also the death of my innocence. The entirety of the music from Chapter One of WHW was based upon that relationship. Until very recently I considered our time together to be the happiest moment of my life, and for anyone who cares, all of those questions were finally resolved in the past year, and Donna and I once again have a friendship. Although I am sure she would not be too happy about me talking about her here (laughing).

UD: In the well-documented "doom-metal wars" of late, it seems like you're always trying to be a voice of reason amongst the insanity. Does it dishearten you that the doom metal "scene" has devolved into just as big of a poseurfied mess as the stoner rock community did?

TP: It’s true that I’ve always maintained a level head about this warring, as I have allies on both “sides.” I understand the reasoning behind the wars, and I while I prefer to remain neutral, I ultimately will side with my longtime brethren when pressed personally. It is disheartening that people cannot just agree to co-exist, but the amount of misinformation that begins with incorrect labeling that is passed on and perpetuated by the media is infuriating. I don’t know if I would go so far as to say that the doom scene has devolved, but the fracturing did begin when stoner rock and doom started getting thrown together under the same umbrella, and the focus of the war has now broadened to include a separate front against the gothic and slow death metal bands as well. When all is said and done, my perspective is simply this: If you don’t like a certain kind of music, don’t listen to it; it serves no purpose but to further fracture things when you start bashing this or that.

UD: For a long time, and I guess to this day, it has been kind of hard to get a hold of WHW releases - in large part because of limited pressings and distribution. Has this been part of a conscious effort to "keep things underground" or just the reality of the cards you've been dealt?

TP: We’ve never been motivated by profit, only personal expression, so there was never really any desire to pursue a more lucrative deal, and being that the music is so personal, I never really wanted to share it with every kid wearing a Cradle Of Filth shirt. So I suppose you can say it was something of a conscious decision. Another factor was my general dissatisfaction with the productions and performances on the older releases, but now with “Empires” I feel like we are finally realizing what I’ve always had in mind for WHW.

UD: Rumor has it that a licensing agreement has been reached for an "unlimited" pressing on the Of Empires Forlorn CD. Any truth to this?

TP: Yes, after all these years we finally decided to sign a licensing agreement that will allow us to cover a much larger territory. After going over offers from various labels, we decided that Rage Of Achilles made us the best offer.

UD: Are there any forthcoming WHW releases folks should keep their eyes peeled for?

TP: The most important release to watch for is the unlimited edition of the “Empires” album coming this September on the UK label Rage Of Achilles. That version will include one song that was not on the Eibon pressing, and will feature an improved mix overall. Additionally, a vinyl pressing of the album will appear sometime, once again on Germany’s Metal Supremacy Records, but there I don’t have a release date for that yet. Then we also have a split 7” coming up with The Doomsday Cult from Sweden, and eventually another 7” single from the album. After that, we’ll be releasing the “Sorrow Of The Angels: Definitive Edition” on both Eibon and Rage Of Achilles. And we’ve already been writing the “Vast Oceans Lachrymose” album for quite some time now!

UD: Any chance WHW shirts will be available in the US sometime soon?

TP: We’ve been planning on bringing over a large quantity of the shirts our German merchandising company (Rock Bottom) produced, but we needed to take care of the rest of this studio time first. More than likely we will also produce a new design ourselves at some point in the near future, but in the meantime you can order the German designs at www.metalmerchant.com. Keep checking out website for updates on merchandise and forthcoming releases.

UD: Are there any plans for WHW live shows or tours in the immediate future?

TP: We’ve done a couple gigs recently already with the current line-up, including one with our brothers Twisted Tower Dire, as well as the first all-doom festival in the US, the Born Too Late festival. We’re taking the summer off while our sister bands Brave and Twisted Tower Dire do some touring, then we’ll probably have a few isolated shows starting in September. The next big plan is for the Spring of 2004, when we will be doing some festivals and a short tour in Europe, which is long overdue.

UD: Any cool bands you've heard or done shows with people might not know about but should?

TP: There are tons of new bands that I would recommend from both the burgeoning doom scene as well as the true metal world: I think Orodruin will be one of the bands to watch in the doom scene for sure – what a great live band. Then there are also plenty of new European bands at the demo stage right now like Forewarned from Ireland, Doomshine and Well Of Souls from Germany, The Doomsday Cult from Sweden just to name a few of the doom bands. I’d also recommend some of the true metal bands out there like Battleroar and Raging Storm from Greece. And for anyone who has not checked out Thunderstorm and Doomsword from Italy should get their albums immediately.

UD: Before we wrap, let me say what a thrill it has been to conduct this interview. It has been great, and often extremely moving, listening to the progression of your musical vision over the years, Tom. I really feel WHW is the best thing going in doom metal right now and that Of Empires Forlorn is one of the best albums ever. Keep doing what you do--nobody conveys passion and emotion through their music in this genre like WHW does. Any final words for the WHW faithful?

TP: First of all, thanks for the interview Dan…I appreciate the interesting questions and unwavering support. Thanks also to all of our fans all over the world for the emails, letters, and support in general…you are priceless to us. For more information on WHW please check out www.whileheavenwept.net or www.mp3.com/whw as well as www.rageofachilles.com and www.eibonrecords.com. You can contact us directly via plomerus@hotmail.com or snail mail While Heaven Wept, c/o Tom Phillips, 4809 Lockwood Lane, Dale City, VA. 22193 USA.

Doom forever onward!