Interview for Ubermetal, July 2003

Greetings Tom, how's it going?

Things are going pretty well right now, thanks for asking.

Tell me about the writing and recording process of Empires Forlorn?

A fair amount of the material was composed throughout 2001, but there were a couple older songs like “Sorrow Of The Angels” (from the out-of-print “Lovesongs Of The Forsaken” MCD from 1994) and “Of Empires Forlorn,” which I originally started writing back in 1997 for the other band I am involved with, Solstice (the UK Epic Doom Metal band). The cover songs’ arrangements were also developed in 2001 as well. As for the actual writing process, it tends to vary from songs to song; something like “The Drowning Years” developed from the vocal melody, whereas “Soulsadness” and the title track began as a series of chord progressions. In all cases, everything is revealed to me through revelations initially (I never sit down and force a song into existence), and those are often the result of intense emotional catalysts. Once the basic song structures naturally “feel” complete, I will then take them to the table to develop the arrangements. This is the same approach that I’ve implemented since the very beginning, which lends itself perfectly to the development of sincere and emotional material. After the songs are basically complete compositionally, we’ll rehearse them thoroughly before heading into the studio to realize them in a recorded form. In the case of the “Empires” album, we began rehearsing the material in January 2001 after a year hiatus following the live shows for the “Sorrow Of The Angels” album. Though we started out with the same line-up from the 1999 live shows, it became rather fluid, much like it has been throughout our 14-year existence. The line-up that ultimately realized the “Of Empires Forlorn” album came together in October 2001, so that incarnation really only spent about 3 months preparing for the studio before entering Assembly Line Studios at the end of January 2002. Between January and June we spent about 3 days each month laying down the basic tracks and the initial overdubs. Due to the fact that another artist previously booked the studio from July until November, we were off the entire summer, during which time we further developed the arrangements and gradually developed our mixing plans. We returned to Assembly Line at the end of November and spent 2 weeks tracking the rest of the overdubs (mostly keyboards and guitar solos) and vocals. We then took another 2 weeks to mix down the album in its initial form, even though we had gradually been building the mix throughout all of the sessions. The first version of the album was mastered just before Christmas, and subsequently released on Valentine’s Day 2003.

What were you hoping to accomplish in creating this record?

As with all of our releases, the primary goals were brutally honest and emotional expression and the closest realization possible of what I hear in my head. There were certainly hopes of surpassing the quality of our previous efforts in terms of production and performance as well, and I feel as though we were successful in all of these areas. There was another aspect of this particular album; having parted ways less-than-amicably with another band related to us, I really felt as though I had something to prove to them and myself. Needless to say, I feel more than vindicated as the final result exceeded all of my expectations.

Do you feel that this album will end up being the payback for all the efforts you've put into this band over the years?

As you may have surmised from the above responses, my definition of success has nothing to do with fame or fortune, as the real return is having an album that really says everything I wanted/needed to say and captures inspired and impassioned performances, with the highest quality production possible. I can say that, for once, I am extremely pleased with the results of the “Empires” recording; in my opinion, all of the recorded efforts in the first decade were lacking in either performance or production or both, predominantly due to our limited financial resources as completely independent entity, as well as technological limitations. This time around, we spared no expense, and micro-analyzed every last aspect of the recording, which contributed to the most successful realization thus far. Additionally, we’ve clearly developed a signature sound that is distinctly While Heaven Wept, whereas the recordings of the past were “developmental” in my opinion and only hinted at what was to come. All of these things are more important to me than any other “payback,” but I am certainly pleased with the reactions to the album, as well as the heightened exposure in the media – it seems like a lot more people are paying attention to Doom Metal, and if “Empires” helps to facilitate this then I’ll be extremely happy, as WHW along with so many of our brothers have been combating a generally apathetic attitude from the industry for more than a decade.

What were the recording sessions like?

The first thing we did was spend a few days developing our tones and experimenting with microphone placement; we’d already had a few days of pre-production in November to discuss the overall goals for this recording. Once the actual tracking began, things became increasingly difficult during the initial sessions, as both Jason and I were extremely ill at the time (I was pushing a fever of 102 degrees!), but we managed to track all the drums in 3 days time. The bass and rhythm guitar sessions went by very swiftly despite our painstaking approach (all of the guitars tracks were recorded separately…we did not use a signal splitter or anything like that). The keyboard tracks took a bit longer because the keyboardist at the time was rather incoherent for many of the sessions and thus frustrating to work with (this inevitably led to his departure), and once I took over tracking them I was limited by my technical abilities, as I am a guitarist first and foremost (and have only had limited instruction on the keys). The vocal sessions were extremely difficult, as I was really pushing myself, and Kevin our engineer pushed me even harder to get the best takes possible. I left those sessions feeling completely drained emotionally, physically, and mentally, which proves how cathartic this music is, but still, this left me feeling pretty rough. The tracking sessions were ultimately grueling as there was a lot of work involved, but for the most part it was an enjoyable experience, largely due to the group effort in the realization of this – if it wasn’t for the fact that we have a really good chemistry within the band and with Kevin it would have been absolutely hellish. The mixing process was much less taxing, but still required an extremely sharp focus given the number of layers and nuances in this material. What helped us out quite a bit was the fact that we took home reference CDR’s after every single session, and by the time we were ready to mix, it was pretty well developed already. Having said all of this, I’m ready to get right back in there and start work on the next album!

How will the version to be released in September differ from the one that is currently available?

Even before the album was finished, we knew that the version of “Empires” released on Eibon Records (who also released our 1998 album “Sorrow Of The Angels”) would be an extremely limited pressing packaged in their trademark extravagant digipak format, thus we recorded a few extra songs so that we could contribute something exclusive to that edition. Since its release, we’ve returned to Assembly Line to complete the tracking and mixing of another exclusive song, and have also re-mixed the rest of the album for Rage Of Achilles version. This edition will be issued in the standard jewel case format, and will be available in an unlimited quantity.

What drives yourself and the rest of the band to keep recording and writing new material?

First and foremost it is the need for personal expression; WHW is my vehicle for dealing with events in my life, where I can most easily say things that I could not express otherwise. On another level, we want to write and record music that we’d like to hear on our own stereos. An external factor is the large amount of mail I get from people all over the world who feel less alone because of the music of WHW, and to make a difference in even one person’s life is extremely rewarding for me, let alone hundreds or thousands.

Under what circumstances were the members of While Heaven Wept brought together and go on to form the group?

When we first came together in 1989, basically it was a group of high school friends, (most of which had played together in another bands called Polaris) who wanted to create a more diverse form of music than our previous efforts (which were essentially semi-melodic thrash/power metal) attempted. We were equally inspired by Progressive Metal, Thrash, Doom, Classical (and Neo-Classical), Death Metal, New Age, and even Jazz Fusion, so the earliest incarnation of WHW was a hybrid of all of the aforementioned, formed strictly for musical reasons. Over the years, numerous people have come and gone, and by 1991 the band had more or less become my vehicle for coping with traumatic events in my life around that time, so some of the early elements became less and less prominent. Despite the almost unheard of number of line-up changes (more than 60 in 14 years!), there’s never been a single audition or “casting call,” as just about every member has come from another local band or our circle of friends, and we’ve managed to continually develop as musicians and songwriters. The latest incarnation is no exception with members coming from Revelation, Brave, and Forty Days Longing among others – everyone was a friend and fan before they actually became involved with WHW.

Goal-wise, how did your expectations and hopes for the band differ in the beginning as compared to current day?

In the very beginning, like most young bands our hopes were unrealistic and revolved around illusions of monetary success, grandeur, and excess, but once the premise of the band shifted from the musical to the extra-musical, all of that went out the window. Since then the goal has been singular and has remained unchanged: brutally honest expression and the accurate realization of what I hear musically. While I certainly would not complain if I were able to live off of performing music alone, its just not realistic considering the nature of our music as well as the industry itself; the kind of music we write and perform has never been popular, and will never be a trend – I’m not saying it’s impossible to reach a level where we could live off of the music alone, but it’s just not very likely, and that’s not why I do it anyway. Thus, my goals and hopes have remained more or less the same for the past 12-13 years.

What is it about the Doom scene that got you into the music and interested in creating a band in that vein?

As mentioned previously, when we started the band, Doom was indeed an element of our sound, but only one of many aspects; we were more of a Progressive Metal band in the beginning than anything else, but as the music became more emotional and introspective WHW evolved into more of an Epic Doom Metal band. We never intentionally set out to be a Doom band even if we had influences like Candlemass, Trouble, and Black Sabbath; we were equally inspired by Queensryche, Iron Maiden, Fates Warning, Slayer, Dark Angel, Coroner, Voivod, etc. – it’s really just how things developed naturally. By the time we adopted the moniker of While Heaven Wept in 1991 (we’d gone through several names in the early days, but have essentially performed the same music the entire time, and still perform some songs from the late 80’s incarnations to this day), it was clear that we had far more in common with bands like Solitude Aeternus, Count Raven, Revelation, Cathedral, and even Paradise Lost than Dream Theater or Watchtower. What’s interesting now is the way our music is coming full circle; the forthcoming material is in fact more of a blend of our original influences, and thereby far more diverse than any Doom Metal band. I’ve always maintained that I would never play Doom strictly for the sake of being Doom – I hate music that is contrived or false, and considering where my head is as of late (now that many issues of the past have been dealt with, accepted, and/or resolved) it’s time to move on to other things. So what you can expect in the future is our densely layered signature sound and distinctive approach applied to material that is much more varied, but no less Epic. I think the Epic element is what will unite the material of the future with that of the past.

Which bands, past and present, do you think best represent what Doom metal is all about?

Well let me start by defining what True Doom is to me: it is music that is slow, extremely heavy (aurally and/or atmospherically), dark, emotional, ominous, and either sinister or despaired. For me, True Doom is epitomized by the opening sequence of Black Sabbath’s namesake and the mellotron elegies of early 70’s King Crimson. Having said that, I tend to personally prefer bands that are sincerely emotional like Revelation or Canaan (not really a Doom Metal band, but closely related considering they evolved from Ras Algethi). Needless to say the bands that I feel that most represent what True Doom is all about are: early Black Sabbath, Witchfinder General, Pentagram, Pagan Altar, Desolation Angels, Saint Vitus, early Trouble, Dream Death/Penance, Revelation, and Candlemass. As for my contemporaries, they would include: Solitude Aeternus, Solstice, Forlorn (from Sweden, now called Isole), Warning, The Reverend Bizarre, Orodruin, Thunderstorm, The Doomsday Cult, Dawn Of Winter, Mirror Of Deception, Spiritus Mortis, Minotauri, Millarca, Doomshine, and Cold Mourning to name a few. I do not consider Stoner Rock like Fu Manchu to have anything to do with True Doom (and to me, most of the bands from the old “Doom” label Hellhound have far more in common with Stoner Rock than Doom…talking about The Obsessed, Wretched, Unorthodox, etc. as well as the Southern Lord and Rise Above labels), nor do I consider slow Death Metal bands True Doom, even if bands like Paradise Lost and Anathema once displayed some similar characteristics. A little bit closer to the mark is this new wave of Funeral Doom bands like Skepticism, Pantheist, and Shape Of Despair, but I am sure several of my colleagues would disagree. One of the big problems with Doom Metal is the way Stoner bands and Death Metal bands have been lumped into the same category as the bands I mentioned, which has only contributed to the confusion and apathy in the industry and listening public.

Could you tell me about your background as a musician?

I come from a reasonably musical family, and started listening to the music my siblings and cousins were listening to at a very early age – my earliest inspirations were bands like Aerosmith, Rush, Yes, Journey, and Kiss, but as I became more independent I started listening to a lot of NWOBHM like Iron Maiden, Venom, Saxon, as well as stuff like Judas Priest, Yngwie Malmsteen, Ozzy. I started playing guitar in 3rd grade, and took lessons for about 8 years. I started composing music for my first “band” in 5th grade, and it was a very primitive form of Heavy Metal inspired by Iron Maiden and Venom especially. With time, my tastes grew more extreme, and I was heavily involved with the tape-trading underground very early on, so by the time I was in high school, I was already listening to all the German Thrash, early Death Metal, Doom, and Grindcore, while most everyone else was still barely discovering Metallica. While Heaven Wept was formed during my freshman year of High School, and my studies predominantly revolved around music theory at that time. I continued focusing on theory and musicology throughout college, and have obtained a degree in classical music composition. I listen to just about every form of music there is (with the notable exceptions of Gospel, Hip Hop/Rap, Nu Metal, Cock Rock, and Top 40) so I am constantly inspired by everything that I here, and I think this diversity is essential to any musician who wants to offer something unique. I don’t think that having a musical education is in any way limiting, rather it tends to offer more tools to better express one’s self.

What do you do outside of the band?

Right now I don’t do anything outside of the band, even though that ultimately means I exist in rather impoverished conditions. Usually I have some kind of shit job on the side to help make ends meet, but essentially, I’ve sacrificed a lot to do this band, and will continue to do so until I feel as though I’ve nothing left to say.

Where would you like to see While Heaven Wept in five years?

Well that will be just about our 20th anniversary, so I’d hope that we’d still be composing and performing music that is sincere and significant, without ever compromising our integrity or becoming redundant. At this point in time we have quite a few recording projects coming up as well as a European tour, so the next couple years will be pretty busy. Once we’ve completed all of those endeavors, we’ll assess things and determine the course for the future. If I ever feel as though we are in danger of becoming self-parodying or redundant, it will be time to pull the plug; I’d rather go out at the top of my game like The Police or Emperor than allow WHW to deteriorate like so many bands seem to be doing these days.

Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to add?

I’d just like to reiterate some of the things we have coming up in the near future, beginning with the unlimited pressing for “Of Empires Forlorn” coming this September on Rage Of Achilles Records. Additionally, there will be a vinyl pressing of the album (most likely on Germany’s Metal Supremacy label, who have previously released our “Chapter One: 1989-1999” 2LP Anthology), a couple 7”s (one being a split with Sweden’s The Doomsday Cult), and the release of our re-recorded 1998 album “Sorrow Of The Angels.” In the Spring of 2004, we’ll be heading to Europe for a tour that will include appearances at the Doom Shall Rise II festival, the Belgian Doom Night festival, and the Athenian Metal Night festival. We are currently preparing material for the next all-new full-length album “Vast Oceans Lachrymose,” which as I said, will be an even more diverse affair. Otherwise, I would just like to take this opportunity to thank all of our fans and supporters all over the world, as they are priceless. For more information about WHW, anyone can peruse our websites www.whileheavenwept.net and www.mp3.com/whw. The band can be contacted directly via email at plomerus@hotmail.com or through snail mail at While Heaven Wept, c/o Tom Phillips, 4809 Lockwood Lane, Dale City, VA 22193, USA.

Great, thanks so much for your time Tom!

Thanks for the opportunity to express myself and talk about the new album Scott, it's massively appreciated I assure you.

Doom Onward...